tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4501419294567207665.post4077683293204323502..comments2024-01-01T18:40:30.350-05:00Comments on Ryan Cooper: "Civility," Rhetoric, and Argumentative TacticsRyanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03810858979281766801noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4501419294567207665.post-15406243641070127562014-05-03T17:31:02.972-04:002014-05-03T17:31:02.972-04:00Yeah, I wouldn't call Bruenig uncivil either. ...Yeah, I wouldn't call Bruenig uncivil either. And in any case, even when he whacks somebody a good one it's always in very concrete terms and in the service of a very concrete point. I was more using this controversy to talk about the way that these kind of weird social effects operate and how to think about them tactically.Ryan Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17164379024023137718noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4501419294567207665.post-71043567571080551512014-05-03T00:41:38.223-04:002014-05-03T00:41:38.223-04:00Some times I figure, if that's who you're ...Some times I figure, if that's who you're pissing off, well then great, you're doing fine.Ken Newmanhttps://twitter.com/WraithKennynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4501419294567207665.post-29679855780414623992014-05-03T00:38:24.406-04:002014-05-03T00:38:24.406-04:00Great article. I'm a big fan of Matt Bruenig&#...Great article. I'm a big fan of Matt Bruenig's, love his work. And his Twitter takedowns of libertarians make my day.<br /><br />I've been thinking a lot on this civility in politics problem over the last year or so. The two quintessential concepts I've found that everyone should be forced to learn about in school are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_principle and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity <br /><br />When I first found Matt Bruenig's writing, it occurred to me that perhaps he was going at folks a little bit too hard, but I've since changed my mind on that. (My own temper and attitude leaves me no room to criticize anyway.)<br /><br />1. Civility requires some threshold level of care and accuracy that I feel Bruenig meets. I believe that he considers (to a reasonable degree) the usefulness and the consequence of using rhetoric that may approach the edge of civility. (but in my opinion, doesn't cross it)<br />2. Civility really requires reciprocity for it to make any sense. I believe civility should be extended first, and perhaps even when not at first reciprocated, but there are limits to that.<br />3. Sometimes (rarely) things really are worthy of vitriol, and civility does not apply (righteous anger and all that).<br /><br />In the end, I just don't see Matt Bruenig being uncivil. He has remarkable patience considering the topics he covers. I suppose a "see if you like it" kind of strategy could be incivil, but only sometimes. Maybe I'm just not civil myself. The word seems to have a particular connotation sometimes that some of us don't like.<br /><br />"Civility" is sometimes deployed by some as a "weapon" to browbeat and shutdown legitimate criticism from the "lower" classes. We shouldn't put up with that, but it shouldn't sour us on civility's usefulness either. Civility is a tool for cooperative endeavors. (If what you are engaged in isn't cooperative, it's a somewhat less useful tool.)<br /><br />That's a long enough comment I suppose. I still have to follow your story's links (there's some good ones in there). Thanks!Ken Newmanhttps://twitter.com/WraithKennynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4501419294567207665.post-26300164614194820562014-05-02T17:31:14.258-04:002014-05-02T17:31:14.258-04:00Gobry is so worried about incivility in our discou...Gobry is so worried about incivility in our discourse that he <a href="https://twitter.com/pegobry/status/328945526957539330" rel="nofollow">wrote</a> that progressivism is "based on the murder of children."Aidannoreply@blogger.com